|
July 21, 2002 Back To Chat |
||
|
talemaker2:
... talemaker2:
Good evening Sweetheart fans... talemaker2:
This is our 7th Chatroom discussion about our Sweethearts' film talemaker2:
Tonight topic is Bitter Sweet talemaker2:
having email the film stats out we can start right in talemaker2:
tonight Dorothy will be giving a presentation about Bitter Sweet so
if we will all be patient she will enter it into the chatroom talemaker2:
Dorothy, dear talemaker2:
the room is yours talemaker2:
... MamaLion27:
Yes, Gio. I am ready. Just bear with me. talemaker2:
:-) MamaLion27:
In MamaLion27:
In MamaLion27:
Well, I must be doing something wrong. MamaLion27:
In Dugan
EK: Waiting breathlessly-- MamaLion27:
Oh fudge. I will have to do it by hand. talemaker2:
let me help a little Dorothy MamaLion27:
Do that Gio talemaker2:
these are the little things that make life interesting MamaLion27:
Can I send it to you IM? My computer hates me. talemaker2:
here is Dorothy's presentation... talemaker2:
In "Bittersweet" MGM had it all...two perfect voices, a flawless talemaker2:
But the movie MGM made was not the play Coward wrote and he cried talemaker2:
But the movie MGM made was not the play Coward wrote and he crie talemaker2:
Similar to the stage production, the as-yet uncut movie opened talemaker2:
But in the final release, both this prologue and the epilogue were
cut because of the similarity of the format already used in "Maytime".. talemaker2:
While "Roger" is listed in the credits, the character no longer talemaker2:
Other even more drastic changes were made before shooting began talemaker2:
was that of a playboy with a live-in mistress but the role was sanitized
for Nelson ( the studio allowed him to play a bandit but never a rake)
diluting most of the character's interesting persona. talemaker2:
It was only Nelson's glorious voice and charisma that saved the talemaker2:
Von Tranisch (George Sanders) and all Nelson got for his pains talemaker2:
English girl, Jeanette was a bit more mature and a bit less repressed
than Coward's ingenue role. But as a saving grace in what was now talemaker2:
the duet by Jeanette and Nelson of Noel Coward's "I'll See You talemaker2:
The duel scene on the other hand, reputedly brought cries of
"foul!" It must have been the shortest duel and death scene in
cinema history. talemaker2:
The film won Oscar nominations for Color Cinematography and Color talemaker2:
"a treat for eyes and ears" and generally gave favorable reviews
to
our Sweethearts in particular. talemaker2:
as ever, Dorothy talemaker2:
go ahead Dorothy MamaLion27:
Thanks, Gio. talemaker2:
now you can continue with your presentation MamaLion27:
That was the presentation. Now let's hear what the others have to talemaker2:
well, thank you talemaker2:
This was very informative talemaker2:
any comments to be added ? talemaker2:
feel free to jump in talemaker2:
Well, lets start with what was not included in the movie talemaker2:
Was was cut? talemaker2:
prologue and the epilogue talemaker2:
what was wrong with duplicating this talemaker2:
? talemaker2:
if it worked once, why not again MamaLion27:
In my search for Roger, I realized several characters were cut. talemaker2:
yes.. talemaker2:
can you mention them MamaLion27:
The pawnbroker is listed in the credits but the scene with him Dugan
EK: There's no pawnbroker in the Coward play!! ?? MamaLion27:
But there was in the film before editing. Dugan
EK: Fascinating. talemaker2:
it looks like hollywood was adding and editing to fit their MamaLion27:
They left it to the stars to talk about the pawnbroker! talemaker2:
Do you thing by the seventh film the audience pretty much had in talemaker2:
and it just took away from the film or the stars? talemaker2:
Well, do any of you think this film worked... Dugan
EK: Ah -- a scene where the sidekicks pawn the furniture? talemaker2:
don't mention something about pawning his belongings Dugan
EK: That makes sense -- (except that it takes footage away from the
principles. MamaLion27:
But they needed to explain where things went after the pawnshop Dugan
EK: Oh, they do! "Take one fat sofa, saut" etc. talemaker2:
with onions Dugan
EK: OR it could be before the newlyweds arrive home. MamaLion27:
Yes, later. The first time is when Karl and Sari first arrive. talemaker2:
at the train station talemaker2:
Dorothy talemaker2:
? MamaLion27:
Yes, I think they went from the station to the pawn shop before Kirifan1
has entered the room. talemaker2:
well...lets ask some questions... talemaker2:
Question: In what year do Carl and Sarah Linden elope, and what talemaker2:
any takes talemaker2:
taker talemaker2:
we are going to test the little gray cells tonight and have some talemaker2:
Question: In what year do Carl and Sarah Linden elope, and what Beth
Kenobi has entered the room. talemaker2:
for the record talemaker2:
1891 talemaker2:
London and Vienna talemaker2:
another question talemaker2:
As Carl is carrying Sari up the steps to their apartment in MamaLion27:
Am I heavy? talemaker2:
? talemaker2:
good try talemaker2:
but i think she was too light talemaker2:
"Who said knighthood wasn't still in Flower? Carry on, Sir Carl. talemaker2:
Eleanor... talemaker2:
why don't you ask your question? Dugan
EK: I'm on the phone -- sorry -- talemaker2:
here is another question> What is the name of the cafe where
he in talemaker2:
now come on, we all saw this movie a least a dozen times talemaker2:
Dick how about you? talemaker2:
:-) Dugan
EK: Schlick's Cafe talemaker2:
good try Eleanor... talemaker2:
but not quite talemaker2:
it was the other cafe' talemaker2:
Mama talemaker2:
Mama Lu DIXC:
My comment is that the movie writers are superior to Noel Coward. He MamaLion27:
The cafe where they sang Tokay but it escapes me. talemaker2:
yes talemaker2:
that is the cafe talemaker2:
Mama Luden's Cafe Dugan
EK: Mama Luden's?? talemaker2:
yes talemaker2:
give Eleanor 10 points Beth
Kenobi: that sounds like cough medicine. Maybe that is where they got talemaker2:
have to start adding up these points talemaker2:
good point Beth talemaker2:
for 5 points talemaker2:
Follow up Question:> What actress plays Mama Luden?
Answer: Greta Meyer! MamaLion27:
A comment! talemaker2:
go ahead D. MamaLion27:
Veda Ann Borg did this film as Manon with a new face. talemaker2:
first of all i was curious if anyone would have noticed the answer
to the last question talemaker2:
:-) talemaker2:
kiri has an interesting slant talemaker2:
go ahead kiri Kirifan1:
this is the second bittersweet film talemaker2:
i did not know this talemaker2:
did anyone else talemaker2:
? Kirifan1:
has any one seen it? Dugan
EK: Yes, I have a copy -- it is fascinating. Kirifan1:
as i knew you would Eleanor:-) Beth
Kenobi: I have only seen this version once, and I have never seen the=20 other
one talemaker2:
and who was in that one Kiri Kirifan1:
is it very different from ours? Dugan
EK: VERY young Anna Neagle is dreadful as the young Shari BUT is Kirifan1:
is the music the same? talemaker2:
so they stuck closer to the original script MamaLion27:
Yes, that one was filmed in England in 1933 Dugan
EK: AND they go on past Karl's death as in the play -- she marries Lord Kirifan1:
soooo mgm would have known about it talemaker2:
it is the 40 minute mark... talemaker2:
so lets have an open chat now Dugan
EK: AND Ivy St. Hillier is Manon, the mistress, and has two songs,
"If CraziLadii
has entered the room. Dugan
EK: Apologies -- Hellier. Alicefaye3
has entered the room. talemaker2:
for those who have just joined us, you can catch up most of the talemaker2:
question> talemaker2:
What did Carl Linden say his father called Tokay Wine? talemaker2:
i will give 10 points and a bottle of Tokay to whomever get this talemaker2:
:-) Dugan
EK: Nectar of the gods? Boy, these questions are hard! CraziLadii:
!diane talemaker2:
okay, make the questions easier CraziLadii:
the wine of love, woman and song? Dugan
EK: Right! talemaker2:
almost talemaker2:
but not quite CraziLadii:
no tokay? talemaker2:
sorry talemaker2:
ginger ale talemaker2:
he said... talemaker2:
"The wine of love, laughter, and song!" CraziLadii:
the nectar of wine, woman and song? CraziLadii:
you are right! talemaker2:
Laugther wins the Tokay CraziLadii:
haha talemaker2:
now i know you all know this one talemaker2:
Who is the actor who plays the market keeper that both Carl and Dugan
EK: Herman Bing! MamaLion27:
Herman Bing Alicefaye3:
Herman Binh Beth
Kenobi: what they said:-) Alicefaye3:
*Bing that is... talemaker2:
ah, i can see you are all on your toes tonight Dugan
EK: And what song does Jeanette teach her? talemaker2:
follow up question talemaker2:
And who plays Herman Bing's daughter?
Ruth Tobey. Alicefaye3:
I'm trying to remember the song... talemaker2:
anyone catch that last name talemaker2:
well, i guess no one is going to get this Eleanor talemaker2:
so give us a clue talemaker2:
have a heart talemaker2:
how does the melody go talemaker2:
:-) Dugan
EK: It's from Barber of Seville. (No, not Largo al factotum.) Dugan
EK: Una -- Alicefaye3:
I'm still at a loss... Dugan
EK: Una voce -- Kirifan1:
una voce poco fa talemaker2:
ah... Dugan
EK: Una voce poco far (I think) Kirifan1:
:-) Kirifan1:
yep Alicefaye3:
I think Kirifan should get it anyway....lol Kirifan1:
hehe Kirifan1:
thanks very good talemaker2:
i agree Kirifan1:
;-) Dugan
EK: Definitely. talemaker2:
from 1-8...were would you place Bitter Sweet in the Sweetheart Kirifan1:
not my fav in afraid talemaker2:
1-8 MamaLion27:
Seven! Alicefaye3:
7 Kirifan1:
i hate to see nelson dying in color Kirifan1:
maybe 8? Alicefaye3:
I just hate to see Nelson dying period...especially in a 3 secon Kirifan1:
well said talemaker2:
here is a bit of trivia about nelson Dugan
EK: But since often films are tied for the same spot, that makes only Alicefaye3:
This may be 8 for me as well....I rather like IMAA Kirifan1:
me too!! talemaker2:
Nelson was an excellent fencer DIXC:
7 for me talemaker2:
Beth MamaLion27:
He never got to fence in this movie. talemaker2:
no... talemaker2:
but he would have one=20 talemaker2:
won Dugan
EK: For me, it's tied at last place which is #4, along with Girl. Alicefaye3:
So Eleanor, would this one be a 5 for you then? :-) MamaLion27:
He would have made a great rake, too talemaker2:
:-) Alicefaye3:
Oops...maybe I should have waited and read your answer talemaker2:
did anyone read about why Jeanette broke out laughing during the talemaker2:
? Dugan
EK: A 4 -- but all the others are ahead of it except Girl. Dugan
EK: No, why did she laugh? talemaker2:
She was already for the scene talemaker2:
ran over to Nelson talemaker2:
held him talemaker2:
then spotted a hole in his sock talemaker2:
and started to laugh Alicefaye3:
Poor Nelson....couldn't even die with any dignity... talemaker2:
:-) Kirifan1:
thats a shame Dugan
EK: But Karl was poor -- of course he'd have holes in his socks, despite
all of Sari's mending. Alicefaye3:
Bravo Eleanor! talemaker2:
good point talemaker2:
but they darned it talemaker2:
it was not in the script Dugan
EK: Of course, any of her gorgeous gowns could have been pawned for MamaLion27:
They could have given him new ones! Alicefaye3:
Ha ha ha talemaker2:
that is what i say Alicefaye3:
The gowns would have been worth much more than the furniture... talemaker2:
as for the dresses Dugan
EK: In my youth, one put black shoe polish on one's skin so that holes talemaker2:
i read this bit... Kirifan1:
i heard of that talemaker2:
in one scene alone, each costume was made of 65 yards of material,
10 taffeta petticoats under a full skirt, and each costume costing
$325.00. Alicefaye3:
We did that in a play I was in in college once... MamaLion27:
Adrian didn't cut corners. talemaker2:
so one pair of socks i think they could have fit into the budget Kirifan1:
think of the cost today talemaker2:
without breaking it Alicefaye3:
$325.00? Wow...cheap... Dugan
EK: Which doesn't seem like much, but remember that the electricians DIXC:
Sock it to them! talemaker2:
but you got your money's worth talemaker2:
i am watching Bittersweet as we chat talemaker2:
last question for the evening Kirifan1:
my computer is separate from my tv talemaker2:
How do you feel about the closing scenes when Sari rushes home talemaker2:
"Carl-they heard your music tonight.
The thing we dreamed came true," and softly singings-
"I'll see you again". talemaker2:
Then Carl's face appears through the clouds and his voice softly talemaker2:
love to hear from you all on
this Dugan
EK: I wretch. Kirifan1:
its soooo sad Kirifan1:
i cant watch that part Alicefaye3:
It's not my favorite ending.... talemaker2:
dick MamaLion27:
Leaving no room for Lord Shayne. DIXC:
Only way to get him to sing one more time. Dugan
EK: I would have been happier if we only heard his voice. For his head
to
float in the sky is maudlin and over the top kitsch. Kirifan1:
this is true talemaker2:
but it is a tough ending then talemaker2:
sad Kirifan1:
because of this ending its an 8 Alicefaye3:
Very true....maybe just hearing his voice....kind of like in Rose Dugan
EK: Is 8 tops or bottom? Kirifan1:
bottom talemaker2:
bottom MamaLion27:
That would have been much better. Dugan
EK: Good -- that's what I thought. talemaker2:
For me, i would put it around 5 talemaker2:
i am use to operettas talemaker2:
and use to the lead male either loving, crying, or dying Kirifan1:
sooo many different views when i went to the uk in their tv times they
liked it talemaker2:
i like the music and the spirit of the movie Dugan
EK: Only men die in operettas. Only women die in opera, unless both Kirifan1:
i do like noel cowards tunes talemaker2:
Well, as a tenor talemaker2:
i died a couple of times Kirifan1:
thats a good point Eleanor MamaLion27:
And Gus Kahn's upgrades talemaker2:
Tosca talemaker2:
Aida Dugan
EK: Modest of you to admit it (giggle). Kirifan1:
in Italian operas women really get killed off Kirifan1:
BUT in Richard Strauss and Mozart they live on Dugan
EK: In Tosca and Aida both lovers die of course. talemaker2:
yes Alicefaye3:
Apparently, I need to hit the MOT a little more... talemaker2:
a mimi goes in Boheme Kirifan1:
and in romeo and julielt they both get it Dugan
EK: Mozart kills Don Giovanni -- and the Commendatore -- hmmm. Kirifan1:
mozart was married to a soprano Alicefaye3:
Although Lakme was good.... Kirifan1:
sooo was richard strauss talemaker2:
you see, how we are use to seeing our stars die Dugan
EK: And Johanahan gets beheaded in Strauss's Salome-- talemaker2:
so Bittersweet fits in line with the mode Kirifan1:
thats horrid to see MamaLion27:
But in death scenes that mean something. Alicefaye3:
Nelson's death in this movie was ridiculous, really.... Kirifan1:
in wagner they never really die Dugan
EK: You know MGM's discovery -- audiences adored watching Garbo die in Kirifan1:
only their bodies Alicefaye3:
Yes, only certain actresses could die... talemaker2:
that was like Robert Young talemaker2:
he could not be bad Kirifan1:
i was made Jeanette died in smilin' through Dugan
EK: Tristan and Isolde die! Siegfried
dies! All the Gods die at the end of Gotterdammerung! talemaker2:
the Film audience was furious when he played bad Dugan
EK: And the heroine of the Flying Dutchman flings herself off a cliff MamaLion27:
And some comedians die every show. Alicefaye3:
Robert Young looked silly trying to be a bad guy though.... talemaker2:
so we have our stars cut out for certain roles Kirifan1:
i forget talemaker2:
so did Cary Grant Alicefaye3:
But at least he could be believable at it... believable
at it... Kirifan1:
i think ill stick to operettas talemaker2:
well, i for one do not like seeing either one of our Sweethearts Kirifan1:
me too talemaker2:
in the movies or real life Alicefaye3:
Sorry to be ignorant...but what is the difference between opera talemaker2:
so for me they keep living on Kirifan1:
me too talemaker2:
with this note...i will say to all of you... talemaker2:
it was wonderful talemaker2:
you are all so good Kirifan1:
oh alice faye had a question Kirifan1:
about opera and operetta Kirifan1:
there is not much difference in the singing talemaker2:
for the record, next week's chat is there last film I Married an Angel Kirifan1:
more in the endings i think Kirifan1:
oh good MamaLion27:
In opera all dialogue is in song. talemaker2:
we have to close down but we can still keep chatting Alicefaye3:
Thanks Kirifan! Kirifan1:
anytime Kirifan1:
:-) talemaker2: Chatroom log closed...Luck in your dreams! posted May 24, 2003 |