You have just entered room
"NelsonAndJeanette."
SokorraK: New Moon
JHami828: Which scene?
JHami828: I keep forgetting to watch for
it.
GarlandGrl: I think..... I'm lost.
GarlandGrl: :-)
SokorraK: When he is in the bottom of
the ship singing
SokorraK: :-)
JHami828: Ah...
JHami828: Maybe we should discuss
possible reasons for goofs?
Dugan EK: I HOPE you mean a bobby pin!
JHami828: Hahahah
JHami828: That's what we meant.
JHami828: I'm so tired....
JHami828: I thought the spelling on that
didn't look right.
Dugan EK: Goofs occur when the continuity
person (called "Script Girl" in the olden
days) failed to catch a mismatch between
shots. Or it could not be avoided. I've told
the story, perhaps of a film I did with
William Shatner. The sequence of
Dugan EK: scenes was rearranged so he went
through a door wearing a plaid shirt and
came out with a tan one.
JHami828: You did a film with William
Shatner?
JHami828: Sorry....I mean....he had a
plaid shirt and it turned tan?
JHami828: I guess they still make
mistakes in newer movies.
JHami828: Maybe not as many
mistakes...
SokorraK: That happened in RoseMarie
SokorraK: The hotel owner went wearing
one thing into a room and came out
wearing another
Dugan EK: Yes, I did a film with William
Shatner, and yes, it appeared he magically
changed shirts as he walked through a door.
(I was costumer so I cared about such
things!)
JHami828: When they noticed the
problems in editing, I guess they didn't
bother to re-shoot scenes.
Dugan EK: Reshooting scenes is VERY
expensive and sometimes impossible if the
set has been dismantled or the cast let go.
JHami828: True
Dugan EK: Now, with computers, they can
digitally fix things!
SokorraK: Thats why they should do the
editing before they dismantle
SokorraK: I like how they put the chair
goof in so it looked as if he was
suposed to have her fall back in the
chair and brake it
JHami828: Eleanor...which of their
movies seems to have the most
goofs?
Dugan EK: That isn't always possible. They
do the "dailys" but only when the whole is
assembled from the bits do some things
become obvious. Also decisions are made
later that affect continuity.
Dugan EK: I don't know -- I'd have to look
at the list on my website to see if one film
has more than the others -- but remember,
the more beloved the film, the more likely
people are to watch it over and over -- and
then spot little things.
JHami828: I guess so.  I notice the
smaller details of the movies I watch
over and over.
Dugan EK: Sometimes when a film runs too
long, the decision is made to cut a subplot.
But the characters in that subplot are still
visible in crowd scenes. This is true of Louis
Hayward in Anthony Adverse and of several
actors in von Stroheim
Dugan EK: von Stroheim's Greed.
SokorraK: Some of the goofs were
actually done by editers
Dugan EK: Buster Keaton is cut from New
Moon --
JHami828: Do you think Buster Keaton
should've stayed in New Moon?
Dugan EK: Oh, I think the editors try to cover
up goofs! That's their job.
Dugan EK: Yes, I'd have loved to see Buster
in New Moon!!!
GarlandGrl: Jessi, are you talking about
stuff like Hidden Mickey's and such?
SokorraK: umm...not sure what your
talking about
JHami828: I know they make references
to older movies in newer ones.  For
example, in New Moon, when Nelson
asks Jeanette if she will remember him
now (in the cabin).  It makes me think
of "Will You Remember Me?" from
Maytime.
SokorraK: I'm talking about when they
have to fuse takes and it doesn't flow
correctly.  Like in the scene where
Frank Morgan is talking to his wife in
Nma.  Her head does the same motion
twice
JHami828: Which scene is that?
GarlandGrl: Ooooh... I thought you
meant stuff they purposely stick in for
posterity.  Like in Disney films, usually
there's something shaped like Mickey
Mouse...
Dugan EK: That may be an attempt to repair
damage in the original negative, done when
the film was reissued. There is also the
freeze frame when Marietta leaves the
marionette theatre and when the pirate
descends into the hold of the ship.
Dugan EK: and when she tells Nelson he can
call her Blue Eyes.
SokorraK: It is the scene where He
almost got in trouble with the "horse." 
She is turned away from the camera
and she turns to her left to face Frank. 
She then does a nodding action. In the
next frame you can see her do the
same thing.
JHami828: I'll have to watch for that.
JHami828: It looks to me like they did
something on purpose...but it confuses
me.  There appears to be a pot on a
fire during the "Totem Tom Tom"
dance, but it collapses when they push
that big drum over on it.
JHami828: Do you think that was on
purpose...or a mistake?
Dugan EK: Yes, I kept expecting the drum to
burst into flames -- but no. Hollywood
magic.
JHami828: I was just watching Rose
Marie...noticed that Nelson would sing
with the Mounties sometimes during
the "Song of the Mounties"--but you
don't hear his voice.
JHami828: I love watching his horse go
forward...a bit sideways with the
mounties on scene behind him.
SokorraK has left the room.
SokorraK has entered the room.
SokorraK: sorry about that
DIXC has entered the room.
SokorraK: I went to ask Dick in but it put
me in another chat
DIXC: Not here, for it was nice to get in to
the chat room:-)
GarlandGrl: You beat me, Jessi... just
freaked out "Dick wasn't there a
second ago!"  ROFL ;-)
JHami828: How did they film the
movies...such that a person was riding
with one of those pre-filmed
backgrounds?
JHami828: Hi, Dick!
DIXC: Don't know but I'm here:-)
DIXC: Thanks
Dugan EK: In Rose Marie, Nelson has
rear-projection riders behind him. In
Balalaika, he has real ones.
JHami828: I mean, the person is moving
forward on a horse with that
background behind and the
background stays the same distance.
JHami828: What are rear-projection
riders?
Dugan EK: A camera was put in the back of
a camera truck riding along ahead of the
men on horseback.
JHami828: Interesting.
Dugan EK: Often street scenes are rear
projection with a few live actors crossing in
front of the screen to make it seem that the
key actors are in New York or London or
Venice.
Dugan EK: Or at the ocean or in the
mountains -- etc.
JHami828: Now, when Nelson would be
riding...how did they make it look like
the background was staying with him?
Dugan EK: Now, with computers, it is much
more realistic. Hitchcock always used one
really bad rear projection scene in each film
-- to thumb his nose at the audience, I
suppose, to say "this is just a movie."
Dugan EK: The background Mounties
followed him because they followed the
camera on the truck.
SokorraK: Was that when he was riding
in front of a screen
JHami828: So, they were filming the
mounties and Nelson with 2 different
cameras?
Dugan EK: They go outdoors and film the
Mounties. Then the project this image on a
screen. Nelson gets in front of that screen
and rides a real horse on a treadmill or a
fake horse seen only from the mane up --
another camera films both live
Dugan EK: live Nelson and the moving
images behind him onto one film.
JHami828: Why didn't I think of that....a
treadmill!!
SokorraK: Makes you wonder at cost
cuts
Dugan EK: In Sweethearts, when they ride
home in the taxi with Reginald Gardner, the
rear projection screen behind the taxi's back
window indicates they pull up to their house
in the middle of Times Square! I love it!!
JHami828: Sorry to get off topic.  There
was  "the chair in New Moon" goof?? 
What was that?
Dugan EK: Also, sometimes the speed at
which a car is supposed to be traveling
doesn't match the speed at which the
scenery goes by outside the fake car
window on the rear projection screen.
JHami828: That is too funny, Eleanor...in
the middle of Times Square.
SokorraK: It was Nma. not NM
SokorraK: Nma stands for Naughty
Marietta
Dugan EK: Yes, do look at the back window
the next time you watch the film. Flashing
marquees like Las Vegas indicate movie and
stage theatres.
JHami828: Sorry...NMa....was that the
chair that broke when Nelson pushed
her down into it?
GarlandGrl: Yup
JHami828: I guess they kept that in there
on purpose...
SokorraK: I think they did for comedy
purposes
JHami828: Wasn't there some insignia
(sp) on Nelson's outfit that wasn't there
as it should've been at the beginning of
Rose Marie?
Dugan EK: I don't know about that one, but
someone just submitted a good goof -- that
when Nelson sings under Rosalie's window,
the stripes on his sleeve go from 3 in the rest
of the film to 2 -- he is demoted by love.
JHami828: Yep...that was me...
GarlandGrl: LOL
JHami828: Always paying attention to
those uniforms.  :-)
Dugan EK: Ah -- I can never remember
people's "handles."
CraziLadii has entered the room.
JHami828: My husband helped me notice
that one.
CraziLadii: Hi all very late today
DIXC: In New Moon when he leaves at
the end to go fight he is looking up,
while when the scene shifts to her she is
looking up to sing to him. Odd
CraziLadii: just picked up my daughter
from the airport.  She was in Peurto
Villarta, Mexico
GarlandGrl: Hi Diane!
GarlandGrl: Awwww
CraziLadii: howdy
JHami828: Hey...
JHami828: That is odd, Dick.
CraziLadii: movie goofs night?
GarlandGrl: Mm hmm
JHami828: Yep
CraziLadii: I'll just watch because you
probably already hit them all--you
experts!
JHami828: Anyone know of a goof that
was corrected?
JHami828: All we have to do is go to
Eleanor's web site.
Dugan EK: The scene with Nelson singing
back to Jeanette was added at the last
minute -- so matching may not have been
great.
JHami828: She has a huge list of goofs.
JHami828: So, Jeanette was going to be
singing by herself, huh?!
DIXC: That explains it. Thanks Eleanor
CraziLadii: oops!  gotta run.  Bye all
CraziLadii has left the room.
JHami828: Bye
Dugan EK: Yes, scripts right up to the end of
shooting do not include Nelson reprising the
song.
JHami828: It does seem a bit odd in the
movie.
JHami828: I always wondered why they
didn't go for a close up of Jeanette and
Nelson at the end of New Moon.
Dugan EK: Incidentally all, Ginny is doing a
fantastic job of researching script changes in
I Married an Angel. And Mary Truesdell
has transcribed the script of the first
Maytime! I'm hoping she will do a paper on
it at Cambridge Springs in J
Dugan EK: in June.
JHami828: Great!
Dugan EK: I'm SO glad they didn't complete
and release the first Maytime.
SokorraK: wasn't it a bit darker
JHami828: I also wonder why they didn't
show a close up of Nelson and
Jeanette in that scene in The Girl
where she is telling him she loves him. 
They show Walter Pigeon instead.
Dugan EK: Although Mary really likes some
of the scenes given to Nelson. (I personally
think he wasn't enough of a scenery chewer
to pull them off -- that a kinder, gentler
character was more suited to him.)
Dugan EK: The ending of Girl was also
rewritten post production.
JHami828: Which brings me to one
more....in Rosalie...why is half of the
song "In the Still of the Night" with
Nelson and Eleanor's backs to us??
JHami828: I mean the first time he sings
it?
Dugan EK: Don't know -- but the audio is
done first, then film fitted to it with lip
synching by the performers. Perhaps there
was a cut or addition to original sound track
and they had to "conceal" this?
JHami828: Good idea...I didn't think of
that.  I know they wanted to end up with
that unusual kiss at the end.
Dugan EK: Sometimes they record too much
music, then find the scene drags or runs too
long and so must make cuts. For example,
The Angelus is cut in Sweethearts -- you
can see just where it was --
JHami828: So, some possible
goofs...had more to do with scene
changes.
DIXC: I have to leave now. Thanks for the
nice visit. Bye:-)
DIXC has left the room.
JHami828: Bye, Dick!
SokorraK: Hey Ginny, could you do the
transcripts?
JHami828: Thanks everyone for the chat.
GarlandGrl: Ginny will try
GarlandGrl: I got knocked off too
Dugan EK: No, only a few goofs due to
changes in film. Most are just overlooked or
unavoidable. Like the flowers in Three
Daring Daughters that go from buds to
losing petals within 20 seconds.
JHami828: EEK...get rid of the bobby pin
goof, Ginny.  Haha

Posted May 17, 2003